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^SuperscriptThese are the discussions from Orkut:

1.  Jude : Shame on Tamil society and India. 1/20/2006 10:18 AM

Shame on Tamil society and India.

This link was posted by david_russell_watson <liberty@pahrump.com> in Tolkaappiyar@yahoogroups.com

http://www.safarmer.com/Dalits/Untouchables_WMV3.wmv

The fallouts of a stinking practice called Caste system

2.  Bala : 1/21/2006 12:32 AM

Can you imagine some structural ways of slashing casteism/racism in TN?

An example of a structural way:-

Objective: Break down a village society

Structural moves:

(1) Have the authorities in the village to be reliant on an authority in a distant location

(2) Impose piped water on the village

How do these 2 structural moves break down the village?

Mothers and children used to go to the village well for water. While waiting for their turn, they socialised, children playyed with each other, children's parents talked to each other. Trust was built. Social capital was built

Piped water --> no need to go to vilage well --> less "woven into day to day lives" ways of building trust --> more distrust --> less social capital -- less innovation.

3.  Bala : Brainstorming 1/21/2006 8:08 AM

Let's brainstorm strategic and imaginative ways of accelerating the slashing of the caste system.

Fundamental rule of brainstorming: DO NOT JUDGE -- let the storms happen. Ranking and evaluation is a later phase.

(It would also be off-topic to discuss why the caste-system should not be slashed in this thread -- start another)

What is the fuel that feeds the caste system?

How might we wipe that fuel out?

Let us say the caste system is not there 1000 years from now. Imagine that Tamil world. What might it look like, feel like, work like? Possible scenarios.

What structures might have replaced the functions fulfilled by the caste system now?

4.  Bala : Caste System's Fuel 1/21/2006 8:24 AM

>What is the fuel that feeds > the caste system?

1) Spartan outlook (as contrasted with a "think big" outlook) on the part of parents. Iconic statement: "I'd rather my daughter get married to a devil I know from my caste, then a devil I don't"

2) Fear --> thus sheep-like behaviour (as contrasted with imagination and reasoning). Iconic statement: "Aiyoaah..namba aalnga enna sollluvaanga. Namba aalnga munthi moonja eppidi kaaturathu nee namba aalnga ulla kalyaanam kattaati?"

3) Habit

4) Pervasive distrust

5) Gross shortage of: pre-marital love, romance, love letters, serenades, love conversations, convenient places for clandestine love; the words, sentences and poetry of love

5.  Bala : Weakest Links 1/21/2006 8:38 AM

What might the weakest links of the caste system be?

Martial arts exponents learn the weakest spots of our opponents. Example: strikes on the pulse points of your opponent are best bang-for-the-buck. With minimum energy you can finish him. Eg one distraction and one strike on the balls of man will have him reeling for a long while.

What might be parallel vulnerable spots in the causation chains that make the caste system?

Which castes might be easier to slash than others?

Which types (socioeconomic profiles) of teenagers might be parallels of "swing voters". [Swing voters are voters who are not rigid on voting for a particular party and who can be influenced by savvy messages aimed at them]

6.  Amala : 1/21/2006 9:42 AM

  I have strategies to remove this evil.

One of them is sport for harmony. http://sport4harmony.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

Allowing people to play together for fun and reward.

Untouchablity is still prevalent in tiny villages where people still do not have contacts with outside world.

It is amazing that for folks here do not even know all these and white people have to tell them. That is showing the tremendous changes happening in our place that people do not even know that these things are happening. Another shameful thing is these folks cut off from their people and more associated to Bill Gates world. That is, knowing that White people discriminate Black people and not about the flaws in our system. It is history that Brahmins considered non-Brahmins dispicable than cats. ie. If they see a cat when they go out, would turn back, take bath and come back. If they see a non-Brahmin across they would even cancel their programme. All these things have disappeared and most brahmins do not practise these things nowadays.

Yes. Two-glass tea shops are still there, I am afraid. And they wont let the lower caste people to take water in their wells and taps. Even my mum practices two-glass system when some one outside home asks water, I believe. But my learned elder brother would bring them in and give food. These are there.

So, what you folks are going to do apart from feeling sad and having a beer?

7.  Amala Re: 1/21/2006 1:22 PM

One of the reasons why there is a sweep over western culture is, it does give the flexibility to the people who adopt which our Tamil culture does not. That is the reason why Tamil and Tamil identity is losing. Several centuries of love in the language and culture has made slaves to our own culture which we are unable to come out of bad habits.

Check this: http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/46006

We need to somehow encourage boldness to express people's feelings irrespective of whether they are against their culture or not, if we want changes. We need to find ways for that in our society.

8.  Jude: 1/21/2006 10:03 PM

1.Land reforms - The Kerala model.

2.Education to all - More Dalits to study in colleges. ( there is serious casteism at college level...even the most reputed colleges have this problem..when i entered into St.Joseph's ,Trichy Hostel..the ist question by seniors ..Whats ur cast?..when i said i have no cast..these guys couldn't beleive - Mallu christians have got rid of caste)

3.More media focus on successful Dalits.. Create heros...and our guys will start worshipping ( we dont need any coaching here)..others'll become wannabe heroes.

4.Ban all caste based political parties..

9.  Bala Reverse bastardization of Purusa-sukta 1/22/2006 9:10 PM

From: Tolkaappiyar@yahoogroups.com [Tolkaappiyar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of K. Loganathan Sent: Monday, 23 January 2006 12:05 PM To: akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com; meykandar@egroups.com; Tolkaappiyar@yahoogroups.com; tolkaappiyar@googlegroups.com; dravidianculture@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Tolkaappiyar] Re: [akandabaratam] Rewrite the Purusa-sukta - indianexpress

Dear Friends

Just a brief comment on the following:

>>>>

Dalit historian Kancha Ilaiah has a suggestion. Just as the Vatican meets periodically

 to modernise catholicism, he says, the shankaracharyas should meet in conclave to modernise 

Hinduism. They should not only re-write the Purusa-sukta, but they should also decree that everyone, every woman, every tribal, every dalit, has the right to be priest of God and God is not the exclusive preserve of the brahmin. The event will have tremendous symbolic value,

 provide a turbine charge to India’s quest for modernity and Bhim Rao will at last be vindicated.

>>

I believe that Purusha Suktam should not be rewritten but re-understood by recovering the original base of that important treatise that constitues a further developement of the metaphysics of the Sumerians. For example the crucial clause : bramano asya mukam asiit' should be seen as an archaic form of Ta. piramaNa=u aasya mukam aakittu ( aakiRRu) ( from the resplendent part of Purusha emerged the faces of the creatures). The phrase 'mukam aakiRRu"( the faces emerged, or became) clearly shows that this sloka is concerend with the the anatomy of creatures and how they can be related to the structures of Purusha. No varNas here. It must be a later re-interpretation and corruption and all because the original Tamil knowledge was lost.

Loga

viji <viji123@yahoo.com> wrote:

Rewrite the Purusa-sukta http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=22005

SAGARIKA GHOSE

10.  Bala 1/22/2006 9:11 PM

 On the birth anniversary of Dr Bhim Rao Ambedkar, it may not be out of place
 to revisit that wonderful work on the Indian caste system, Homo Hierarchicus 

by Louis Dumont. Some critics have called Dumont’s book an oversimplification, others have called it Orientalist, but one of the book’s most important contributions is the argument that the caste system is not just a social arrangement. In fact, the caste system is a system of ideas.

The idea of hierarchy, according to Dumount, lies at the core of Indian society. Hierarchy as based on age, gender and caste, hierarchy which is sanctified by religion itself. “Greater” and “lesser”, the two categories that are crucially antithetical to a modern egalitarian society, are in fact embedded in Hindu

 social consciousness.

Every upper caste child grows up with a mind’s eye image of the “achyut”, the

 “untouchable”, the “scheduled caste”. The imagined Untouchable is perpetually 

filthy just as the Brahmin is perpetually pure. The imagined Untouchable is squalid in appearance and perpetually inferior. And his inferiority, like the inferiority of the young and of women, is sanctified not just by society, but by God.

Today, many dalit writers argue that India will never be a modern society unless

 the Purusa-sukta of the Rig Veda is re-written. The Purusa-sukta is the hymn which
 states that brahmins are born from the forehead of the creator, khstriyas from the
 arm, vaishyas from the stomach and shudras from the foot.

The dalits, or “ati-shudras”, are the “un-born”. They exist outside the body of the

 cosmic being, thus they are doomed to endless pariah status, however far they advance
 in education and wealth. In a society subliminally conscious of the Purusa-sukta,
 Ambedkarism is bound to fail.

“Democracy,” Ambedkar wrote, “is essentially a form of society, not a form of government. Political democracy pre-supposes a democratic form of society.” In a society which accepts that God Himself believes that some men are

11.  Bala : 1/22/2006 9:12 PM

born inferior to others, simply providing opportunities to vote or form political parties is inevitably meaningless.

Dalit historian Kancha Ilaiah has a suggestion. Just as the Vatican meets periodically to modernise catholicism, he says, the shankaracharyas should meet in conclave to modernise Hinduism. They should not only re-write the Purusa-sukta, but they should also decree that everyone, every woman, every tribal, every dalit,

 has the right to be priest of God and God is not the exclusive 

preserve of the brahmin. The event will have tremendous symbolic

 value, provide a turbine charge to India’s quest for modernity 

and Bhim Rao will at last be vindicated.

Today paradoxically, Ambedkar’s legacy poses a peculiar dilemma

 for the modern dalit. To take on the dalit mantle, to educate,
 organise and agitate for dalit rights, to set up statues of 

Ambedkar, to use the dalit as a voter, as say Mayawati has done, is to be radical soldier of empowerment. On the other hand, to neglect the avenue of dalitness and seek to merge with the mainstream would be to renege on the destined cause and risk social disdain from upper castes. Thus dalitness is both a political

 rallying cry as well as, at exactly the same time, a segregative 

device from the mainstream. Mayawati may be “free” but she’s lonely. K.R. Narayanan may have become president but a brahmin woman may never have married him.

In the late ’90s, B.N. Uniyal set off in search for a dalit journalist. He surveyed many newspapers and magazines but didn’t find one. In fact most editors, invariably Hindu, upper caste and

 male became angry with him for carrying out such an “un-necessary”
 exercise. Among 686 journalists accredited to the government, 454 

were upper caste. The remaining 232 did not carry their caste names and in a random sample of 47 not one was a dalit.

Thus the dalit is trapped in certain designated enclaves. He is a politician. He may be a babu or even a lawyer or a teacher in a state school.

12.  Bala 1/22/2006 9:13 PM

But a dalit Bollywood hero? A scriptwriter? An eminent lawyer, artist, model, musician, event manager, hotelier or tour guide? Never. The contemporary dalit (with very few exceptions) is imprisoned in the public

 sector, precisely because the attachment to caste is impossible to escape.

Ambedkar statues have buried his larger message. Bhim Rao’s children are still searching for the way to become activists for “democratisation” rather than simply for “dalitisation”, the former being a battle in which women, youth and adivasis would be allies.

13.  Bala : Know Your Enemy Better Than You Know Yourself 1/22/2006 9:38 PM

One of Sun Tzu's fundamentals in "The Art of War" is "know your enemy better than you know yourself".

So let's here find out and list the most pertinent about castes.

What are the castes that are out there?

What is their numerical strength?

What percentage is their slice in the Tamilnadu caste pie chart

Are the castes further divided into sub-castes?

Who are the leaders of the castes? Are the leaders more in agreement or more in disagreement. If in disagreement, what are the main reasons for their disagreement?

What are their hot-buttons (what they love/what they are self-motivated to do)?

Who are most responsible for sustaining them?

What is most responsible for sustaining them?

What are the main myths that hold them together?

What are their icons?

What are their weaknesses? Eg over time because the fuel of caste is fear and inferiority complex, castes have a way of sub-dividing. Can we help them sub-divide themself to a state where each person is a caste unto himself? Or approach that state faster?

I repeat -- brainstorm - lay out options, however out-of-the-box or idiotic they might appear to be. We'll rank and evaluate later.

You can get lots of information from the caste groups on Orkut itself and from the Net.

14.  Sriram Keerthy 1/22/2006 11:11 PM

Ambedkar in his book 'Castes in India; Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development' says...

Gabriel Tarde, who lays down three laws of imitation. One of his three laws is that imitation flows from the higher to the lower or, to quote his own words, "Given the opportunity, a nobility will always and everywhere imitate its leaders, its kings or sovereigns, and the people likewise, given the opportunity, its nobility." [f.4] Another of Tarde's laws of imitation is : that the extent or intensity of imitation varies inversely in proportion to distance, or in his own words " The thing that is most imitated is the most superior one of those that are nearest- In fact, the influence of the model's example is efficacious inversely to its distance as well as directly to its superiority. Distance is understood here in its sociological meaning. However distant in space a stranger may be, he is close by, from this point of view, if we have numerous and daily relations with him and if we have every facility to satisfy our desire to imitate him. This law of the imitation of the nearest, of the least distant, explains the gradual and consecutive character of the spread of an example that has been set by the higher social ranks." [f.5]

In order to prove my thesis—which really needs no proof—that some castes were formed by imitation, the best way, it seems to me, is to find out whether or not the vital conditions for the formation of castes by imitation exist in the Hindu Society. The conditions for imitation, according to this standard authority are: (1) that the source of imitation must enjoy prestige in the group and (2) that there must be " numerous and daily relations " among members of a group.

The book is intuitively appealing and gives a more probable theory on the origin and development of castes.

So the change now must also start from the top. The imitation principles of sociology will take care of the rest.

15.  Sriram Keerthy 1/22/2006 11:17 PM

But I don't think that the expoitative castes will bring about the change given the advantages they enjoy. So the government should step in and drive the force towards annihilation of castes. Like encouraging inter-caste marriages ( showering many welfares ) and definitely the private sector has to be guided by the government's policy. I think the situation in tamil-nadu is more suited to these changes rather than the whole of india. Here power is not in the hands of the upper-most caste, but still the current dravidian parties are very much exploitative. It would help a lot to tamils and tamil-nadu if they do something about this casteism.

Bala, I have been thinking about this caste-system for a long-time now. The basic problem is that it is very difficult to understand the system and almost next to impossible to find the weakest-link in the vicious circle. But I do know the strongest link. It is endogamy.

16.  Karthik Sreeram keerthy 1/22/2006 11:49 PM

Endogamy is slowly giving way. In cities like chennai, eventhough parents are reluctant, they dont really put their feet down upon love nowadays. There is indeed a trend towards marrying outside the caste.

17.  Karthik 1/22/2006 11:49 PM

Probably the case of villages is different.

18.  Bala : Wikipiedia on Caste System 1/22/2006 11:50 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system

19.  Bala : 1/22/2006 11:52 PM

Karthik,

Thanks for engaging.

Do you have a feel for the characteristics of a person who is more likely to marry out of caste despite their parents reluctance?

20.  Karthik 1/22/2006 11:54 PM

One who is strong in his love. Who wont meekly accept what his parents say.

In my opinion, parents on their own will never look for a partner for their children from outside their caste.

Also, the general trend I see is that the more modern the family is, more is the possibility for the parents to accept a partner from outside the caste for their children.

21.  Sriram Keerthy 1/22/2006 11:57 PM

Agreed that inter-caste marriages happen. But it is still the exception rather than the rule. And the need of the hour, is quickening the demise of endogamy. My major fear is that the caste-system is intrinsically divisive in nature and self-regulating. It is like a disease causing virus, adapting to the situation and evolving with minor changes. And Indian society is so weak because of this disease.

In history, there has been a buddha, mahavira, kabir, and the much recent arya samaj, brahma samaj, vivekananda etc., all aimed at either reforming or revolutionising the Indian society. But everything has failed to produce results. Revolutionary buddhism was slashed in India but spread the world over. Other movements were conveniently absorbed into the hindu system. Thats why I say that government intervention is absolutely necessary to make change possible.

22.  Sriram Keerthy 1/23/2006 12:02 AM

Karthik,

Suppose you don't love any girl. And its going to be arranged marriage. Will you consider a girl from a different caste? Say she is economically well-off.

23.  Sriram Keerthy 1/23/2006 12:02 AM

If yes, then cool. If no, please state the reasons so that we can understand the situation more clearly...

24.  Karthik @Sriram Keerthy 1/23/2006 12:08 AM

My parents will definitely not look for a bride outside the caste. And considering the fact that I don’t have any love affair, I wouldn’t mind the choice that they have. So, an inter-caste marriage is ruled out outright.

The conventional partner-finding system is way too against an inter-caste marriage, primarily because people who use this system are themselves against it.

And I don’t think inter-caste marriages are exceptions. Atleast in cities, they are catching up quite well. As I said, case of villages could be different. People in villages are used to a life where they know the caste of every person they meet. Not the case in cities. I will never know the caste of a person that I travel in train with or the person who works with me. So, people in cities tend to be far more broad minded. And surely the next generation, if not this, will see the breaking of ice between castes with regard to marriages, in a big way.

25.  Sriram Keerthy Built to last 1/23/2006 12:12 AM

Have you read the book 'Built to Last'- Successful practices of visionary companies.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0887307396/002-5877147-7847206?v=glance&n=283155

One of the important topics dealt in the book is 'Preserve the core, Stimulate progress'. This can be used as an analogy to the caste-system... where the core is - endogamy with hierarchial grading, and the progress is - all other manifestation of caste-based discrimination that changes with time. The stress in the book is that for a company to be built to last they should preserve the core. Similarly the caste-system survived all these millenia because of preserving that core.

26.  Sriram Keerthy @karthik 1/23/2006 12:21 AM

Wouldn't you try to convince your parents for a inter-caste arranged marriage? Anyway I think for the parents, accepting a different-caste in-laws because of a love marriage will be as difficult as accepting different-caste in-laws because of a arranged marriage.

Also I tended to research on sociological and anthropological theories on marriage and partner-preference, but found them not matching with the indian system. It is more difficult to understand the indian marriage system.

27.  Karthik 1/23/2006 12:34 AM

I will find a need to convince them only if I fall in love. When I have decided to leave the decision in their hands, I wouldn’t involve myself in any aspect of it. And if I take it in my hands, I will decide what to do. That is one reason why an inter-caste arranged marriage is very very difficult in any house. But personally I would not have a problem if my parents look for a girl outside caste. The next generation of individuals will surely have such concepts. Like inter-caste arranged marriages. Two friends of different castes deciding to become sambandhis etc.

28.  Bala 1/23/2006 1:13 AM

Karthik and all,

> One who is strong in his love

What might be the characteristics of those who are likely to fall in love?

And what might the scenarios, workplace, education, exposure to influences, that abet these loving characteristics be?

29.  Bala 1/23/2006 1:34 AM

Sriram,

>Thats why I say that government >intervention is absolutely necessary > to make change possible.

All else being equal, can a political party that is steadfastly against the caste system, including endogamy, win office in TN?

Or will an anti-endogamy stand be political suicide?

30.  Karthik 1/23/2006 1:41 AM

Or will an anti-endogamy stand be political suicide?

Under current scenario, a popular government cannot oppose endogamy. All it can possibly do is encourage exogamy.

31.  Sriram Keerthy 1/23/2006 9:23 AM

Bala,

Yes the political parties cannot put-forth exogamy in their agenda. May be they can give more welfare schemes to inter-caste families, but in the present situation of vote-bank politics the politicians will make sure that dalits remain as they are... :(

I also wanted to mention about a no-so-strong part of the caste-system. That is suppression of woman. This happens in all societies but is more important in the caste-system. The controlling of woman can be directly linked to endogamy and other evil practices that the indian society had seen. This is a part where we can attack the system.

32.  Bala 1/23/2006 3:04 PM

Sriram,

>That is suppression of woman.

We have to find a way to articulate this nuance more crisply.

There is both suppression of woman by man and man by woman.

It is like a house of mirrors.

Women project their weakness onto man who in turn projects it back onto women and on and on.

See http://www.ryze.com/posttopic.php?topicid=536008&confid=658 for a flowing conversation on this.

And I would say the suppression of man by woman has worse repercussions. Why? Men have the primordial urge to be somebody. It is this urge that takes society forward. The neutering of this urge reduces the thrust of society's march forward.

33.  Bala 1/23/2006 3:21 PM

Sriram and all,

Deconstruct the steps that lead to the destination called endogamy.

[Remember the example I gave above on how to destroy village society. The politicians in Delhi would not have gotten support if they said "vote us and we will destroy village society", but they can get votes if they said "vote for us and we will fund modernisation, piped water, to villages". The outcome was more the same than different.]

Once we deconstruct, there might be steps on the path towards endogamy that appear cool and "the thing to have".

Bala The last straw that broke the camel's back 1/23/2006 4:09 PM Sriram and all,

>Deconstruct the steps that lead >to the destination called endogamy.

Visualise the last straw that broke the camel's back. Visualise the stacking process that leads to the last straw. The last straw is anti-endogamy. Say the last straw is the 100th straw.

Load up (organise) the first 90 straws and you will find that often enough, the momentum of so doing organises the last 10. Especially if there is less concerted momentum for opposing thrusts.

34.  Bala Correction 1/23/2006 4:18 PM

Oops -- mistake above. It should read:-

Sriram and all,

Deconstruct the steps that lead to the destination called exogamy.

[Remember the example I gave above on how to destroy village society. The politicians in Delhi would not have gotten support if they said "vote us and we will destroy village society", but they can get votes if they said "vote for us and we will fund modernisation, piped water, to villages". The outcome was more the same than different.]

Once we deconstruct, there might be steps on the path towards exogamy that appear cool and "the thing to have".

35.  Gopalan 1/23/2006 6:35 PM

Pappapatti and keeripatti are other worst examples of Caste system in TN. (Those who are not aware of what is Pappapatti and keeripatti just google it)

36.  விவேக் 1/23/2006 9:53 PM

Hello All, This is my first post in this group. Anyways, I was quite enthralled at this discussion and wanted to make a small contribution from myside. It is just a thought and do not take personally. I feel to bring in equality,definitely government interference is necessary to punish those who bring into practice untouchability. Also the one other solution I see is remove caste based reservation anywhere. I feel that since this is present now the people from so called 'low castes' are branded so and the people who have lost inspite of merit build up anger against them and then eventually this evil is never removed from India. Let merit decide everything. No form in this country ask for caste, creed or religion.

37.  தமிழ் murugan @vivek 1/24/2006 8:00 AM

If there are no caste based reservations then how can the SC people and the Tribes living in the remote places can come in their life?! As MOST of the illiterates are from the lower casts and tribes. They are totally away from the thought of education for the past few centuties now only some are coming to the normal as there are some reservations! Then only people who are living in the cities and towns will come to the upper stage?

38.  விவேக் 1/24/2006 8:53 AM

@Balamurugan That is the question providing oppurtunities through the availability of schools and colleges everywhere and once these oppurtunities are provided then I have no doubt that this would be eliminated. Therefore, the govt. should rather concetrate on providing these amenities (which I call oppurtunities) rather than caste based reservation. I will prove my fact by an example. Let us say that a person of the so called FC obtains very high percentage of about 90% and another from the so called SC/ST gets about 45-50% and both apply to the same college or govt. post and the so called SC/ST person gets it. Will there not be a grudge or aversion by the so called FC person towards the so called SC/ST person. This is human tendency. The one other downside to caste based reservation is that if the so called SC/ST or OBC people get their seats for such low percentages there is always the possibility that he/she will not work hard enough thus diminishing their own potential to prove their mettle. Throw them into the open world and see how they will rise. It will be analogous to the pheonix rising from its ashes. Think about this I might make sense to you.

39.  தமிழ் murugan @vivek 1/24/2006 9:33 AM

"That is the question providing oppurtunities through the availability of schools and colleges everywhere and once these oppurtunities are provided then I have no doubt that this would be eliminated."

I agree with u'r view but till the govt satisfies the above point "oppurtunities through the availability of schools and colleges everywhere " nothing can be changed. Because Even with these reservations the upper castes are coming up but see the lower castes! It entirely depends on the govt.

40.  Prakash @ BalaMurugan 1/24/2006 9:45 AM

When Indian constitution was formed, people of those days thought that people belonging to some cateogiries are treated badly & some of them are not coming out for good jobs.

So during that time they planned for Resevation for such peoples so that they can pass the huddle & come out. And the guys who formed constitution planned to keep this resevation policy only for a decade or fifteen years.

But politians who came later hadn't removed those things for their ugly political reasons, which now results in a situation that it can never be removed. One political party wiht complete majority can remove the policy but no one will come forward because they will lose in next election. Even if any one do so the opposition party will make use of this as a material for election campaign in next election & of course they will win & after acquiring the power they will again bring back the policy.

Reservation can be given as a financial support for those needed. Instead reserving some seat in educational instituion. The policy should be such that the admission procedure will be same to everyone as single window system according to their marks irrespective cast, religion, gender, recomentation... And later after admission if any of the student is really in need of financial support the government can provide them the needed.

Instead the present situation is, one SC/ST guy who's parent are earning lakhs per month but still he have all those allowances such as the application cost is half compared to general category, course fee is 25% compared to general category, whereas an FC guy whose family is really suffering still have to pay full amount for everything & have to score more than 90% still he wont get admission....

Plz dont think I m speaking PRO infact I m from Backward Community, but I m speaking the happenings & the change that I expect in our socitey...

41.  தமிழ் murugan 1/24/2006 11:33 AM

Ya sure i by u'r View and as u said there are many loop holes in this system.But its all with the govt.As I know both the extremes are there (a FC having less money affected and a SC with sound economic status exploting this). But when we go in to catogorizing the people as per economic status do u think it will be so.. great and every one will tell their true status .That too .... in our place where bribery is rooted every where in the society. So taking an alternative for the Reservation is a very complicated issue!

42.  Gopalan 1/24/2006 2:25 PM

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=86545

43.  Sriram Keerthy 1/25/2006 4:33 AM

Yes reservation based on economic status is not practically feasible. My economics professor told that only just about 2% of the Indian people are income-tax assessee. So think how would the govt. go about enforcing reservation based on wealth.

Reservation will continue until castes are annihilated. The lesser cut-off marks for dalits and OBC, are due to the lack of competition. While dalits and OBCs constitute the bulk of the population, the lack of competition shows the real situation as to how much these people are developed.

One thing is that out of the reserved seats the rural quota can be increased to 75% or 90%. Anyway it is difficult for the government to enforce such a change.

And the way to deconstruct the process of endogamy? Still thinking about it. It is clear that the problem is a like a loop, that means recursive and self-regulatiing.

44.  Prakash @ Sriram 1/25/2006 5:49 AM

I accept you sriram. We can't provide reservation thro economic status. I just said that there should be no resevration based on casts & all should be given equal opportunity. In education field financial aid should be given to people who really in need of it.

45.  Ramakrishnan 1/25/2006 11:51 PM

Endogamy is the least practical of all ideas... it borders on infringement to the fundamental rights of individuals.

46.  Bala 2/1/2006 1:15 PM

Ramakrishnan,

Do you more agree (or more do not) that intra-caste marriages are a root cause for the perpetuation of the caste system?

If many many luminaries from time immemorial eg Gandhi, Bhartiar, Thirunyanasambanthar et all have been against the caste system, isn't it a given that they would have been more against than not, of that which is its umbilical cord?

Which aspects of promoting inter-caste marriages and discouraging intra-caste marriages do you feel might be a breach of fundamental liberties. Would they be any more of a breach of fundamental liberties than the cartelish caste system itself?

Let's take a policy deployment example:-

Because of how they increase private space to teenagers, mobile phones and Instant Messaging are likely to make secret liaisons therefore inter-caste marriages a little bit easier. Does the act of making mobile phones and the Internet available to teens breach fundamental liberties?

47.  Ramakrishnan 2/2/2006 8:16 AM

Do you more agree (or more do not) that intra-caste marriages are a root cause for the perpetuation of the caste system?

No, they are a cause, but not the root cause for the perpetuation of caste system...

Caste cannot be outright banned, because it is not merely a discriminating mechanism, but because it is also a socio-religious-cultural system. You can just remove the discrimination and hope for the best.

If many many luminaries from time immemorial eg Gandhi, Bhartiar, Thirunyanasambanthar et all have been against the caste system, isn't it a given that they would have been more against than not, of that which is its umbilical cord?

All of them were not against the caste system... but against caste-based discrimination.

Which aspects of promoting inter-caste marriages and discouraging intra-caste marriages do you feel might be a breach of fundamental liberties. Would they be any more of a breach of fundamental liberties than the cartelish caste system itself?

The State cannot take up matters outside its own domains... the purpose of the State is not to put an end to certain social or religious systems... but to ensure that no one is affected due to them... and it is limited to that...

Whom I marry is my decision... it's an individual's privilege, nothing whatever that should concern my Government. Every individual can make choices for himself or herself.

It is for this same reason that the State is out to ensure a brahmin cannot be restrained from marrying a non-brahmin... in short, the state cannot poke its head into an individual's personal preferences, and can neither encourage nor discourage the caste system.

But as far as caste-based discrimination, that results in infringement of civil rights or crime is concerned, there is no scope for encourage/discourage or any other courage.... it has to be put down with an iron fist.... and the State is perfectly empowered to uphold justice.

48.  Bala 2/2/2006 12:48 PM

Ramakrishnan,

>No, they are a cause, but not > the root cause for the perpetuation >of caste system...

What do you sense might be the probable root cause(s) that sustain the caste system?

Ramakrishnan 2/2/2006 1:31 PM I am not interested in exploring the sustenance or need for caste system since I am concerned only by caste-based oppression and not the caste system itself.

49.  Bala 2/2/2006 4:41 PM

Ramakrishnan,

>I am concerned only by caste-based >oppression and not the caste system itself.

What might the root causes of caste-based disdain for fellow Tamils, be?

What might the best-bang-for-the-buck ways of transforming more of this disdain to love be?

50.  Ramakrishnan 2/3/2006 7:51 AM

What might the root causes of caste-based disdain for fellow Tamils, be?

The same as those based on language, on religion, on occupation, on wealth, and on power.

What might the best-bang-for-the-buck ways of transforming more of this disdain to love be?

The best way is to not target the caste system itself, but in fostering and promoting an attitude where differences are acknowledged and respected, not from a high-low point of view, but in a functional, ethical and social point of view... make it easier for everyone... there is enough space for everyone in this planet, so let's not tread on each others' shoes.

51.  Vijay (விஜய்) economic development is the key!!! 2/3/2006 2:16 PM

There is no one line answer to this problem..

however economic development of people belonging to every strata (not the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer) of the society would provoke questions about the need for caste system.

Economic development doesn't mean owning an expensive car or bunglow.. it only means that every person/family should not have doubts about tomorrow.. which includes no tensions about feeding himself and his family and also be able to save some money for emergencies..

when we progress to that stage, then we will have a truly free society where people can think about social equality. but when a person from a "lower caste" doesn't have money to feed his children, he is forced to bear these attrocities.

Bala Sriram, Prakash and all 2/3/2006 4:38 PM Sriram, Prakash and all,

What's your take on Ramakrishnan's and Vijay's reasoning (or lack thereof)?

52.  Vijay (விஜய்) 2/3/2006 5:32 PM

economic equality is the first milestone en route to social equality and is not an end in itself!! but to get there it will take us atleast another 25 years.. when probably the problems of caste differences would die out and something different might evolve!!

53.  Ramakrishnan 2/3/2006 8:22 PM

Discrimination is a kind of disease... and some people have lost their immunity to withstand it without being affected, so instead of blaming all the diseases that are there, I would advise the affected persons to focus on improving their immunity levels.

What might appear to you to be the direct problem i.e the disease, is not within your control or my control, so try to control what you can control, not what you can't.

If we take another form of discrimination i.e race-based, was the concept of race or ethnicity abolished to end discrimination? Are diseases abolished to prevent an attack? Just think on these lines... one can only develop one's own immunity by positive action, and not wait for the disease to kill itself fully, because it wont.

54.  Sriram Keerthy 2/4/2006 12:43 AM

Sorry... I was busy with my preparation all the week. Will post this weekend...

55.  தமிழ் murugan Eradicating the caste system 2/4/2006 1:21 AM

"Discrimination is a kind of disease... and some people have lost their immunity to withstand it without being affected, so instead of blaming all the diseases that are there, I would advise the affected persons to focus on improving their immunity levels."

If we compare Caste with the disease there are some many harmfull diseases which are totally eradicated (Smallpox) and people are trying to eradicate (polio and guinea-worm disease )

http://www.who.int/infectious-disease-report/pages/ch6text.html

And many countries are fighting for the same. If we just take immune action for a person its only for that person in single instead take in a broad view of eradication "The entire future generations to come in this world going to get saved " from those severe diseases. why researches are going on for inventing a vaccine for HIV instead they can go in for just some drugs which will increase the immunity and hence the life span of a person (Which is the present day situation of HI9. Any problem can be viewed in a broad range.

So in a broad view when applied to the caste system cant the upcoming generations get saved by ERADICATION of caste system!!!

56.  Sriram Keerthy 2/4/2006 2:12 AM

Well said TamilMurugan. That was a sweet reply. :)

Ramakrishnan Tamil Murugan 2/4/2006 2:39 AM You seem too smart for me ... I was talking about eradication of all diseases... besides, I thought people take metaphors to get the broad import. It looks like there are some literate people who can even be dumb.

To reply to you at your own level... there is no way small pox can be completely eliminated... and no it has not been done so far... 99% maybe, but things can crawl back from that 1%. Diseases have causes for their birth, and the causes can spawn them again... maybe I have to key the text in Tamil to make you understand.

57.  Sriram Keerthy 2/4/2006 3:17 AM

On economic equality... Economic development doesn't mean owning an expensive car or bunglow.. it only means that every person/family should not have doubts about tomorrow.. which includes no tensions about feeding himself and his family and also be able to save some money for emergencies..

Well said - Every person/family should not have doubts about tomorrow. You touched the core. The main problem that the lower-castes face is security. Even if a low-caste fellow is very successful, still he doesn't have a confidence of his security in the future because of caste prejudices prevalent in the society. This is not just in the case of villages but everywhere. So economic empowerment is one of the three chairs of the tripod of dalit/OBCs emancipation. The other two being political and social empowerment.

Now the analogy of a tripod is not faithful to the construct of the caste-system. Of the three legs, there is one that I call the root of all the legs, that is social empowerment. When social equality is ensured, all the other factors like economic and political support falls in the appropriate place.

See this experiment... http://nash.princeton.edu/seminars/WEEKLY%20SEMINAR%20SCHEDULE/Dec%206/Hoff%201.pdf Mind you the above is not a theory but a scientifically conducted experiment. I just read the abstract, conclusion and the experimental setup. In the experiment, when the caste identities were not revealed the performances of upper-caste & lower-caste people are the same. But when the caste identities are revealed, but no discrimination is done( that is all the experimental conditions are maintained the same including the facilities and unbiased decisions ), the performance of lower-castes sink down. This shows atleast that social equality (no-caste identity) is more primary than economic(same experimental conditions) or political(unbiased decisions) equality. So for the eradication of caste, the social revolution is to be taken as the primary factor.

58.  Sriram Keerthy 2/4/2006 3:30 AM

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/

Also I believe some of you might have read about JaneElliot and her famous experiments against disrimination and racism. That also helps to show that no matter where a person comes from, what is his/her economic background, once being discriminated with something that one has no control over, he/she starts to lose out in all activities.

A historical crime has occurred in hindu/indian society and to cure it we need affirmative action, esp, the american way. Remember during colonization, the afro-americans were used as slaves and that is just for a couple of centuries. But americans take so much care to undo that discrimination. There differences arose as people were glaringly different in they skin-color and races. But in India, on the one hand if we consider all hindus to be of the same race, then the discrimination is much more barbaric and backward, since it is directed against its own people.

59.  Ramakrishnan 2/4/2006 3:35 AM

Even if a low-caste fellow is very successful, still he doesn't have a confidence of his security in the future because of caste prejudices prevalent in the society.

When you are successful, your caste is the last thing on your mind. When you are unsuccessful, it is the first thing on your mind. Caste is your favourite excuse for failure, nothing more, nothing less. Everyone starts out equally as a new born... and it's one's conditioning and upbringing that matters... if you told someone that his ancestors were historically poor in studies, you have effectively ensured he wont study well. On the other hand if you make that child believe his family is highly intellectual... he will also strive very hard.

Caste has nothing to play. It is an excuse for feeling inferior and a target to blame your failures on.

Now the analogy of a tripod is not faithful to the construct of the caste-system. Of the three legs, there is one that I call the root of all the legs, that is social empowerment. When social equality is ensured, all the other factors like economic and political support falls in the appropriate place

No. Education and economic success matter more... only they can help... we see people who are very educated and rich dont bother about caste. In Kerala, this has been made possible through emphasis on universal education... not by abolishing castes or by endogamy.

See this experiment...

We have to encourage the attitude that no caste is inferior to any other... though they may be different...

Inferiority complex can come in any form, not necessarily by caste consciousness. It has nothing to do with caste or creed.

60.  தமிழ் murugan 2/4/2006 3:43 AM

Sari naan ippozhuthu tamilile sollukiren nanraka sevi saainthu keetukolunkal ramakrishnan ingulla anaivarum avalavuthan sathiyai sadinalum unkalukku anaitham

"sevidan kathil oothiya sange"

61.  Ramakrishnan 2/4/2006 3:44 AM

A historical crime has occurred in hindu/indian society and to cure it we need affirmative action, esp, the american way.

Do you advocate forced inter-caste marriage? Why is it that even Christian Dalits are no better than Hindu dalits? If you can remove Hinduism, can you remove oppression? Sheesh!

Remember during colonization, the afro-americans were used as slaves and that is just for a couple of centuries. But americans take so much care to undo that discrimination.

In spite of all that, blacks are the highest number of drug addicts and school dropouts in the US. Shows that a people who are determined to stay backward cant be helped.

But in India, on the one hand if we consider all hindus to be of the same race, then the discrimination is much more barbaric and backward, since it is directed against its own people.

Well and good, what is our great Indian Government doing to end the discrimination??? Dalits that get elected do more harm than good to other dalits. And we are talking about caste system, huh?

62.  Sriram Keerthy @Ramakrishnan 2/4/2006 3:46 AM

You seem to be the typical fellow who refuses to see the glaring truth of casteism in India and hindu society. You first declare that endogamy is not the root-cause and when bala asked "what then is the root-cause?", you simple beat the bush by saying that you are not interested in the caste system as such but only against caste based descrimination. I hope the examples that I cited in my previous two posts clearly show that any form of differentiation is unhealthy to the society and overall growth.

Now coming back to the root-cause question. Let me tell my understanding step-by-step. 1. A person is assigned a caste on his/her birth. 2. On what basis? On the basis of the caste of his/her parents (it's father's caste according to governemnt. 3. So the caste of an individual depends on his/her parents or their association/marriage. 4. So endogamous marriages promotes a certain caste

So its obvious that caste being assigned by virtue of birth into some family has its root-cause as endogamy. And there can be a feeling of kith&kin, a feeling of brotherhood, only if there is blood relations. So no amount of reservations/ social-service/reforms will annihilate the caste system. The only tool to annihilate caste-system is inter-marrying. But that will sound the death-knell of hinduism. It is upto the masses to take their decisions.

63.  Ramakrishnan 2/4/2006 3:47 AM

Sari mikka nanri, ungalukku pesa vendaam enraal, neengal dayavu seidu ungal thiruvaayai moodi kondu vedikkai parkkavum.

64.  Sriram Keerthy @Ramakrishnan 2/4/2006 3:48 AM

Stop your ramblings and first read the links I gave. They are not theories, they are experiments with the results speaking for themselves...

Sriram Keerthy @Ramakrishnan 2/4/2006 3:50 AM Do you advocate forced inter-caste marriage? Why is it that even Christian Dalits are no better than Hindu dalits? If you can remove Hinduism, can you remove oppression? Sheesh!

Lets see what you advocate first...

65.  Ramakrishnan 2/4/2006 3:57 AM

You seem to be the typical fellow who refuses to see the glaring truth of casteism in India and hindu society.

Me, typical? And you are the atypical enlightened buddhist monk, huh? Say why did you invite me to the Buddhist community and then didnt post anything there? Maybe you thought I know nothing of Buddhism or history.

you simple beat the bush by saying that you are not interested in the caste system as such but only against caste based descrimination.

Yes, should I say it again?

I hope the examples that I cited in my previous two posts clearly show that any form of differentiation is unhealthy to the society and overall growth.

Yeah, that's exactly what you need to understand - any form of discrimination that hits civil rights and liberties is not conducive to the development of a healthy society. I will even go far enough to say that even linguistic and nationalistic differenciation is bad. Feel happy to be a Tamil, but dont feel proud.

So no amount of reservations/ social-service /reforms will annihilate the caste system. The only tool to annihilate caste-system is inter-marrying.

I am not against inter-caste marriages. If the couple want it, I have no problems.

But this is not a science experiment with precise cause-effect relationship, and people are not test-tubes... keep that in mind.

But that will sound the death-knell of hinduism.

Hinduism is not all about caste system, and besides I dont care whether it dies or not.

66.  Sriram Keerthy @Ramakrishnan 2/4/2006 4:10 AM

Me, typical? And you are the atypical enlightened buddhist monk, huh? Say why did you invite me to the Buddhist community and then didnt post anything there? Maybe you thought I know nothing of Buddhism or history. Off-topic. But still I invited you to take a look in the threads there regarding hinduism-buddhism and rebirth-reincarnation. And I also saw how your 'enlightened ramblings' about buddhism was beaten to death by fabiano there.

Yes, should I say it again? So you accept you beat around the bush...

Yeah, that's exactly what you need to understand - any form of discrimination that hits civil rights and liberties is not conducive to the development of a healthy society. I will even go far enough to say that even linguistic and nationalistic differenciation is bad. Feel happy to be a Tamil, but dont feel proud. I had understood it already and it seems that you are also close to understanding that. The discussion here was whether endogamy is the root-cause and whether social equality is more important that economic equality.

I am not against inter-caste marriages. If the couple want it, I have no problems. The couples will always want it. It is their parents...

But this is not a science experiment with precise cause-effect relationship, and people are not test-tubes... keep that in mind. You cant expect an anthropological/sociological study to be cause-effect. Yet they are not theories but careful observations in controlled environments.

Hinduism is not all about caste system, and besides I dont care whether it dies or not. But I do so, 'cos it will live as long caste system survives. Historical example - spread of buddhism and revival of hinduism...

67.  Ramakrishnan 2/4/2006 4:23 AM

And I also saw how your 'enlightened ramblings' about buddhism was beaten to death by fabiano there.

Are you sure you saw that? Maybe you should ask others to see who got thrashed there and left the discussion for good. I was hoping you would give your great views too, but it seems after seeing Fabiano's fate, you got wiser.

So you accept you beat around the bush...

Hahaha, talk about selective reading and convenience-based history, it's written all over you.

The discussion here was whether endogamy is the root-cause and whether social equality is more important that economic equality.

I dont see any rich or well-to-do Dalits moaning their caste? Do you?

The couples will always want it. It is their parents...

And who are you to read their minds? God?

You cant expect an anthropological/sociological study to be cause-effect. Yet they are not theories but careful observations in controlled environments.

Hogwash.

But I do so, 'cos it will live as long caste system survives. Historical example - spread of buddhism and revival of hinduism...

You know this already... Buddhism is also Hinduism

68.  Sriram Keerthy 2/4/2006 5:19 AM

@Ramki Ok enough with that futile discussion. If possible add something constructive. I'll do the same.

@Bala et all Now coming back to tamil society and casteism. It is beyond doubt that casteism is certainly one of the major factors that hold back the tamil society. I feel that the current situation in tamil-nadu is more suitable to bring about anti-caste proceedings. But the dravidian parties have betrayed the interests of the dalits generally. They are also just following caste-based vote-bank politics. They could do a lot better.

Going back to my stand that endogamy is the root-caste for casteism, I suggest something like... 1. Caste of child based on either of the parents (I think its already the case but I am not sure). 2. Increase the reserved quota for candidates of inter-caste parents. 3. Within the reserved seats for certain groups, say dalits, increase the rural quota, create and increase the inter-caste quota and massively decrease the urban quota.

Nothing can be achieved without such a government intervention.

Of-course these changes need to be placed under the 9th schedule of the constitution to protect from judicial review ( to save from judicial autonomy ). Remember tamil-nadu currently gives total 69& reservation which is above the recommended 50% ceiling , put forth by the mandal commission.

Other general things would be... 1. Like the current compulsory rural employment act, the govt. will do a lot of good if they could spend more on education and confirm quality education in rural areas.

To successfully implement these laws without corruption and misuse of power, I strongly feel that the salary of government servants ( esp. class I and class II ) should be increased so as to discourage bribes and utilitarian activities.

Will the government do? I think it is possible in tamil-nadu...

69.  தமிழ் murugan @Sriram 2/4/2006 10:23 AM

"1.increase the reserved quota for candidates of inter-caste parents. 2. Within the reserved seats for certain groups, say dalits, increase the rural quota, create and increase the inter-caste quota and massively decrease the urban quota."

These two opinions are very good ,that too as far as education is concerned

"increase the rural quota, create and increase the inter-caste quota and massively decrease the urban quota"

will at any cause will help in uplifting the low castes and bring equalness and eventually to remove the caste thinking among the tamils.

But for all these to happen the politics in our state should change and leaders who really want to bring up the tamils should come up as the leaders. Till then.............

70.  Ramakrishnan 2/4/2006 10:31 AM

Nothing can be achieved without such a government intervention.

The Governement is not your Genie to grant all your inane fantasies.

Of-course these changes need to be placed under the 9th schedule of the constitution to protect from judicial review ( to save from judicial autonomy)

You want to protect it from the law? Hahaha. So democracy is just a cover, a sham, for you to accomplish all your undemocratic fantasies, and worse, to protect it from being overruled by the courts.

Remember tamil-nadu currently gives total 69& reservation which is above the recommended 50% ceiling , put forth by the mandal commission.

Yeah, and that is a direct consequence of vote bank politics... the resort of cripples and dumb people. Why not increase it to 99.99%?

Will the government do? I think it is possible in tamil-nadu...

Yeah Nazism is possible in Tamil Nadu... except that Hitler's fake claims of "Aryan race" gets replaced by the great "Dravidan race" and the minority victims are the "OC" instead of jews. All conditions are ripe for this situation... who is going to be the Hitler? is all that remains.

71.  Bala 2/4/2006 1:06 PM

Ramakrishnan,

Change your tone.

I have no problems with your views. I do with your tone and I want all of us to clearly convey the impression that you are listening, that you emphatize, that you build relationships in this community before you take occasional strident views.

See the frontpage of this community -- get a feel for what our cardinal objectives are. It is NOT for "my penis is longer than your penis" or "my vagina is tighter than your vagina" talking at each other.

I am already over-budget - don't have more expensive time to dish out for free. Shape up or ship out. When the nucleus of us have the proper systems in place like that at http://www.slashdot.org that enable us to automatedly deal with mongrel Tamils, my team or I won't have to waste precious energy intervening.

72.  Vijay (விஜய்) 2/4/2006 4:13 PM

2. Increase the reserved quota for candidates of inter-caste parents. 3. Within the reserved seats for certain groups, say dalits, increase the rural quota, create and increase the inter-caste quota and massively decrease the urban quota. @sriram These ideas look theoretically very enticing, but practically will fall out like the already existing laws. Laws cannot mould the behavioural aspect or cognitive thinking of a society enough to abolish caste system. Only education (not just 1+1 =2, but education to inculcate open-minded thinking) and economic stability will lay the foundation to counter-attack the problem of caste system.

It is NOT for "my penis is longer than your penis" or "my vagina is tighter than your vagina" talking at each other. @bala While I appreciate your efforts to keep the conversations in this community focused, I think sometimes you just go overboard yourself.

73.  Bala 2/4/2006 7:56 PM

Vijay (and all)

Thanks for the opportunity to reinforce.

If you want to have a say on how this stadium is run, be part of the group that runs the stadium. If you choose to be a spectator, as you have so far, stick to your spectator role. Or start your stadium. Warning to all: Don't confuse the roles of spectatorship with (a)the players in the field or (b) those who resource the stadium (the whole show). Stray koolie dogs who do not grasp that time = energy/mind/acumen and that energy/mind/acumen is scarce, do this most of the time -- don't be just another stray koolie dog.

If you have any energy to spare, Vijay, come be a player or an organiser. The more you are a player or an organiser, the more tolerance I have for your idiosyncracies. (If one is a new spectator, play the role of a new spectator). Ask Amala Singh or Woo Ke Hong or any of the dedicated in Thamil Innaiya Erumbugal how we do what we do within our limited energy budget and why everything is inter-connected. See How to Make a Decision like a tribe for the role of creating new rituals to bell the slippery Tamildom leadership cat.

74.  Bala 2/4/2006 9:06 PM

>The more you are a player or > an organiser, the more tolerance > I have for your idiosyncracies

Itha Thamizha konjam vilakam kudukuraen.

Ataavathu, neenga puthu vaedikkai paakuravanga naa, oru naakaliya thaeditu, naakalila kunthikinga. Matha vaedikai paakuravanga enna seiraanga, thidala vilaiyaaduravanga enna seiraanga, stadium organise pannuraangula? -- avunga enna seiraanga. Ellaathaiyum kandukunga. Kuzhuvoada palakka valakkangalai therinjukunga.

Appuram ithellaam kandukitoana, vaaya thuraka aarambinga. Muthal entha area-la ungalukku neraiya arivu irukoa, antha area-la mattum "test the water". Alantha aalntha kaezvigal kaelunga. Ariva kudunga.

Apuram kooda area-la irungunga.

Ithu Thamil Innaiya pazhakka vazhakkam.

No compulsion -- if you cannot agree with these ground rules, to put it simply so 99.99% including stray koolie mentally retarded dogs understand -- fuck off.

(One day, we will have systems and people in place to deal with the more and more stray and mentally retarded Tamils. Not now while we are still organising the energy for the nucleus yet).

75.  Sriram Keerthy 2/4/2006 9:45 PM

Ramki, you can do anything in a democracy, if you have the majority support of the people. It is nazism or barbarianism but just the nature of democracy.

The Governement is not your Genie to grant all your inane fantasies. But all over India, the government continues to be the genie of upper-caste people.

You want to protect it from the law? Hahaha. So democracy is just a cover, a sham, for you to accomplish all your undemocratic fantasies, and worse, to protect it from being overruled by the courts. Yes of course... who gets true justice in this casteist society. And anyway that provision of placing a law under 9th schedule is provided by the constitution and is perfectly democratic to use it, if a majority of people are with it.

Yeah, and that is a direct consequence of vote bank politics... the resort of cripples and dumb people. Why not increase it to 99.99%? 99.99% would be too much, but if you insist on that, we can have that. And by the way, it is not a resort of dumb ppl but a tool(but still not a cure) against casteism.

Yeah Nazism is possible in Tamil Nadu... except that Hitler's fake claims of "Aryan race" gets replaced by the great "Dravidan race" and the minority victims are the "OC" instead of jews. All conditions are ripe for this situation... who is going to be the Hitler? is all that remains. Considering hindus to be one race, brahmins' fake claims of "purer birth" and others of "lower birth" are more fanatic and absurd than nazism... and the victims in indian society are not the minorities, but the majority OBCs and Dalits.

Friends, I just gave some ideas on refining reservation of which the 'increase in rural quota and inter-caste quota' are very very important. And anyhow the above steps will not be to force inter-caste marriages, but discourage intra-caste marriages (esp. among upper-castes). B'cos by the imitation principle in societies, other people will naturally tend to follow.

76.  Ramakrishnan 2/4/2006 9:59 PM

Ramki, you can do anything in a democracy, if you have the majority support of the people. It is nazism or barbarianism but just the nature of democracy.

Democratic Nazism, well that is a term I have heard for the first time.

But all over India, the government continues to be the genie of upper-caste people.

How so?

Yes of course... who gets true justice in this casteist society. And anyway that provision of placing a law under 9th schedule is provided by the constitution and is perfectly democratic to use it, if a majority of people are with it.

It doesnt mean constitution is for lynching a minority group if majority agrees to it.

Considering hindus to be one race, brahmins' fake claims of "purer birth" and others of "lower birth" are more fanatic and absurd than nazism... and the victims in indian society are not the minorities, but the majority OBCs and Dalits.

There is no pure or lower birth.. it is your insecurity that makes you feel so. Today dalits discriminate against other dalits, and that is not because of caste.

Friends, I just gave some ideas on refining reservation of which the 'increase in rural quota and inter-caste quota' are very very important. And anyhow the above steps will not be to force inter-caste marriages, but discourage intra-caste marriages

Fair ideas mixed with ludicrous ones.

The Govt has no say in the personal life of any individual, be it marriage or the location of the bathroom of one's house. Enough said.

77.  Sriram Keerthy 2/4/2006 10:21 PM

Ramki, Definitely constitution and democracy is not for lynching minorities. But see practically how they are used all over the world. You will see the practical implementation of democracy.

And it is 100% true that the government has no say in the private affairs of individuals. I accept the same but what I mention is that, even discouraging endogamy is not going to be direct. The people themselves when they see that endogamy is not as fruitful as it used to be( in our casteist society ) will naturally tend to defer from that. It is not forcing. It is the people's own judgement.

Why the governments are genie to upper-castes? B'cos it is evident they have done nothing to annihilate castes.

78.  Sriram Keerthy 2/4/2006 10:24 PM

There is no pure or lower birth.. it is your insecurity that makes you feel so. Today dalits discriminate against other dalits, and that is not because of caste. From where does that insecurity arise? Don't say that is because of dumbness or incapability. Where do dalits discriminate against dalits? Surely the dalit political leaders might do that. They have betrayed the dalit society just like the hindus.

79.  Ramakrishnan 2/4/2006 10:43 PM

Definitely constitution and democracy is not for lynching minorities. But see practically how they are used all over the world. You will see the practical implementation of democracy.

So all over the world democracy is at its practical best, and only in India it's working wrong?

It is not forcing. It is the people's own judgement.

Persuasion is also pressure. Carrots and sticks approach is pressure.

Why the governments are genie to upper-castes? B'cos it is evident they have done nothing to annihilate castes.

No because caste is useful for vote bank politics... has nothing to do with playing genie to anyone. Besides the Govt is indirectly encouraging casteism by providing special privileges to certain castes on the pretext that they are backward... so the "backward" castes will not intermarry with the other castes since they stand to lose their "backward"ness... being backward is a privilege these days, you know. Do you think dalits would like to slip into OC status if they can help it? I think not.

It's a case of having the cake and eating it too... it's not going to happen.

So, far from killing the caste system, the Govt is helping it grow... not because the OC want it, but because of the Govt's own vested interests.

From where does that insecurity arise? Don't say that is because of dumbness or incapability.

Insecurity arises from a mental block... it could very well arise from any cause; for example Indians feel insecure to the White man, and that is not because whites are racist today. It is a leftover mindset which one has to drop by oneself.

Where do dalits discriminate against dalits? Surely the dalit political leaders might do that. They have betrayed the dalit society just like the hindus.

So it's the dalits who are betraying other dalits for the last 6 decades.

80.  Bala 2/4/2006 10:51 PM

Sreeram, Tamilmurugan and all,

I think a more fruitful use of our scarce mind would be to deconstruct endogamy. What are the building blocks that added together equals to intra-caste marriage?

One useful role (despite much useless ones) that Ramakrishnan has played in this thread is in articulating the objections you will have to counter if we disfavour intra-caste marriages. And one of the best ones is the libertarian argument as if enslaving one's over-18 son or daughter into intra-caste marriages is particularly libertarian (but we cannot expect latter to sink in, in binary Tamilnadu where the position is determined first and rationalisation follows. The medicine is determined first and then all the excuses to justify the medicine comes after unlike rational practice of diagnosis, then evaluation of alternative remedies then prescription).

For example, and let's steer this and get back to brainstorming mode here. Especially Ramakrishnan: please note if you do not want to be banned -- read the expansion of what brainstorming is on the first page of this thread. Stick to the spirit of brainstorming.

One-way to prepare for this is say -- and this in a ludicrous example in the spirit of brainstorming to get other building blocks of endogamy unearthed [1] -- is to administratively [2] advocate against marriage brokers and matrimonial ads. Think and list out more of more of the building blocks of intra-caste marriages.

[1] The key is to get more Tamils to grasp the brain-storming process, which is a subset of the imagination process which is a cause of greater societal wealth.

[2] Only those who are experienced in the labyrinthe of rule, will grasp how much more law and justice is effected via the currents that seep through administrative sluices.

81.  Vijay (விஜய்) 2/4/2006 11:12 PM

@Bala I'm telling you what you told Ramakrishanan... I dont have a problem with your views.. but I do with your tone..

Because you own the group doesn't mean you have to be arrogant...

To your previous reply to my previous post: well i dont think i need to be a "player" to suggest how to run the "stadium".. if the "manager" doesn't want to listen to a "spectator"'s suggestion that's upto him.. It's a spectator's right to convey his thoughts about how the show is organized, because as a spectator I spend time/energy/money to watch the "show"!!!

I'm not here to become a part of your "nucleas".. im just here to share my views and hear what others think!!

82.  Bala Making Intercaste marriages the in thing 2/4/2006 11:12 PM

What are "in" things in Tamilnadu now that were not anywhere as much "in" things 10-15 years ago?

Examples: English matriculation schools? Working for the private sector instead of aiming for IAS roles? Majoring in computing in university? Studying foreign languages?

What was the enabling process that led them becoming the in thing?

What can we learn from the enabling process and replicate onto the enabling process that leads to intercaste marriages becoming the in thing?

What might be ways of making intercaste marriages or their constituents, the in thing?

Again, guess. The more ridiculous your guess, the better -- it will spark other guesses. This is the spirit of brain-storming.

83.  Bala 2/4/2006 11:27 PM

Vijay,

Since you are not interested in the objectives of this community, go spill your views in other forums or talk to the wall. Go organise your own audience, you koolie wannabe, then the monkey in your head will learn.

You are not wanted here.

As it is you are not able to comprehend English or Tamil. I doubt the likes of you will comprehend it if my message was expressed more subtly.

For all: the more you are an organiser-doer the more liberties you have, the more "arrogant" [1] you can be (to reach the mentally-retarded). The more you are a new spectator like Ramakrishnan, the less liberties you have.

[1] Synonyms of "arrogant": straight, bold, clear, politically incorrect, not hypocritical, nuanced + contextual + not binary, honest (no lying/no disguise)

84.  தமிழ் murugan @BALA 2/5/2006 1:22 AM

"Are you into everything Tamil?"

"Do you have fire in the belly to make a dent in lifting Tamilness?"

Please highlight these type of sentences in the Tamil community front page .So that people joining the community will know actually on what the comminity is working ON and also new people will get enthralled by these words.

85.  Sriram Keerthy Some news... 2/5/2006 7:07 AM

Bala, Sometime back in this thread you had pointed out changes regarding caste-names of people or something like that. Though caste-names is more prevalent in northern India, it is very very less in tamil-nadu. Anyhow, Mr.Suraj Bhan, the chairman of the Schedule Caste Council of India, after a deep analysis, had proposed the following two things to the government. 1 - Abolition of caste-names (surnames which denote the caste identity will be abolished) 2 - Discussing with and persuading the mutt-heads and religious leaders in deleting the offensive(regarding caste, varna & untouchability) verses in hindu texts. But the dalit intellectual committee came out with strong criticism of these recommendations, and chiding that Mr.Bhan, who was appointed by the then BJP government, was speaking of useless and fake measures to uplift the oppressed masses.

I think the 2nd change is ridiculous, because, ppl don't actually follow what is said in the hindu texts. Caste consciousness has become a nature of indian society. Even Indian christians couldn't escape it.

But I think the 1st change definitely deserves more attention. Stripping of caste-names will be really helpful in general, because when people gather socially and cannot know the caste of the other person by his/her name (he can still make a wild-guess of the other fellow's caste with his/her eating habits etc.,), I think the gathering will be more friendly and hence we can expect an increase in inter-caste friendships and more importantly love . This is just a guess of the consequence is caste-names are abolished. There are many other advantages as well because of this.

But I don't know the status of these recommendations. Is the government considering them?

86.  Sriram Keerthy 2/5/2006 7:07 AM

And regarding deconstructing the process of endogamy or exogamy, a sociologist or anthropologist can tell in detail the fundamental(ruling) factor behind choosing one's partner. My guess would be, as we have discussed here, peer-presure, parents&relatives, culture&practices, economy, food, and so on..

87.  Surya 2/6/2006 7:08 AM

One nagging thing.

Dont you feel your suggestions are going against the fundamental rights of a human. Its freedom that is good for any soceity and not dictatorship.

Any human has the right to choose his name and anyone has the right to include his caste name (or for that matter anyother caste name too) in it. I can choose my surname to be nadar or chettiar or whatever I like.Bottomline, Government or anyother indivudual has no say or business in what I choose my name to be.

Secondly, any person has the right to choose to marry anyother person (provided the other person is willing too). It is a fundamental right. Bottomline, I have the right to marry within my same caste. Government or any other indivudual has absolutely no say in it.

And thridly, if a section of the population can be proud of their mothertongue and get themselves an identity based on it, and can work for the upliftment of their language, why shouldnt one section of the population be proud of their caste, have an identity based on it and work toword the upliftment of themselves.If the former is justified, the latter is justified too.

88.  Surya 2/6/2006 9:51 AM

World is huge. Just observe for a minute.

Humanity is divided based on countries, state, language, religion etc etc. To promote unity, Will you ban languages? or will you try to make everyone speak the same language? Will you make everyone follow the same religion? Will you abolish citizenship and make everyone belong to the same country?

This is NOT the way to go about it.

Let people speak different languages, let people follow different religion, let people belong to different countries. To achieve unity, we only need to make sure people have respect for others.

Similarly, let people belong to different castes. Let them follow whatever they want to. Let differences exist. Just like how different languages or different states exsit.

Discrimination based on caste is wrong, but caste system is NOT wrong.Is it too difficult to understand?

89.  தமிழ் murugan @Surya 2/6/2006 10:52 AM

Are u giving u'r suggetions in the right community ?! Because the moderator had already given his interest over starting this community in Orkut. For u'r easiness i am pasteing the same sentences below

Are you into everything Tamil? Especially in prioritizing what matters most of what matters? In Tamil thought, misthought, commune-ity, economy, culture, food, language?

Are you energetic? Or into fun? Do you have fire in the belly to make a dent in lifting Tamilness?

Tamil society can and must create income opportunities for its most astute -- those of us who rate high on the 8Rs & 3Ss. [1]. Crack the crab syndrome.

These folks go on to creating the environment for the next layer. This is the mark of an able society -- as Tamil society was for centuries since caveman days, except the last few.

Are you ready to identify what the Tamil ecosystem of minds' priorities are, and roadmap toward it?

If so, this is the place for you. For more on the community initiator please see http://www.ryze.com/go/bala

[1] 8Rs = risk-taking,resourcefulness, rapport-building, responsibility, responsiveness,reliability, resilience,resolve. 3Ss = sentience, synchrony, stamina

90.  Surya 2/6/2006 11:01 AM

@Tamilmurugan: I gave my suggestions in the wrong community. Kindly ignore.

91.  Sriram Keerthy @surya 2/6/2006 11:07 AM

Any human has the right to choose his name and anyone has the right to include his caste name (or for that matter anyother caste name too) in it. I can choose my surname to be nadar or chettiar or whatever I like.Bottomline, Government or anyother indivudual has no say or business in what I choose my name to be. First of all, thats not my suggestion. I just mentioned what Mr.Suraj Bhan, Head of the National commission on scheduled castes, had proposed. Infact he had suggested changing Article 17 of our constitution from "Abolition of untouchability" to "Abolition of untouchability and caste system", because of which the caste-names would go, and no caste-oriented thing will be said or expressed or written in public or private and ofcourse reservation will go.

And, disregarding numerology, do you think that you yourself have chosen you name. Or is that your parents assigned that to you... just like a caste was assigned to you by virtue of your birth.

You say that caste-based discrimination is wrong but not the caste system itself. Why do you say so? Is it because it gives undue advantage to upper-castes who live by exploiting the lower-castes? Most of the economists and sociologists agree that caste-system helped only in stagnation of society and Indian economy. Why don't you suggest a methodology to end caste-based discrimination without ending the caste-system itself?

92.  Surya 2/6/2006 11:39 AM

@Sriram Keerthy:

First of all my thanks for lending an ear to what I said.

regarding choosing a name, my parents might have chosen it for me. But if I wanted , I have the right to change my name to whatever I wanted, by just making a notification in Gazette. Since I am happy with my current name, I didnt feel like changing it.

"You say that caste-based discrimination is wrong but not the caste system itself. Why do you say so?"

This is my reason. Different castes have different culture, different customs, different practices. When someone wants to follow the customs (normal harmless ones, like food habits, ways of praying, way of dressing etc) prescribed in his caste, I dont see anything wrong with it. But when someone illtreats or exploits someone else in the name of caste or religion, etc its bad to humanity and hence should be banned.

" Is it because it gives undue advantage to upper-castes who live by exploiting the lower-castes?" If any indivudual exploits any other indivudual, it is wrong. It is crime. I did not support it.

"Why don't you suggest a methodology to end caste-based discrimination without ending the caste-system itself? "

Yes. Just simple unity in diversity. People speak different languages. People follow different religion. Cant a tamil have friendship with a telugu? Cant a hindu have friendship with a muslim or christian. In the same way, a person from one caste can have good relationship with a person from a different caste , can treat each other with courtesy and respect.

93.  Bala Lighting the wick on the Imitation Law 2/6/2006 4:43 PM

All,

Earlier in this thread essencing sociologist Gabriel Tarde, Sreeram writes:-

>So the change now must also start from > the top. The imitation principles >of sociology will take care of > the rest.

Let us imagine a scenario where a larger and larger percentage (though still a minority, i.e. d2y/dx2 is increasing though x is greater than y)of happening people in Tamil society are into inter-caste marriages.

What might this scenario be like?

Film and TV actors getting into inter-caste marriages? Business folks with public profiles getting into inter-caste marriages? Social leaders/politicians getting into inter-caste marriages?

Imagine this scenario and paint your word picture here.

Then we can think of how best to light the wick that leads to the flame that is your imagination.

94.  Bala Why do parents want in-caste marriages 2/6/2006 4:55 PM

Let's also deconstruct this. Why do parents insist on in-caste marriages?

Why do many feel like a waste of space if their children do not marry in-caste?

Why do some threaten children that will commit suicide if their children do not marry in-caste?

Why do they feel that their meaning in life, their rathathin achini, is their child marrying within caste?

Why are they so unHindu-like attached to caste? Are their lives devoid of meaning, otherwise? Do they feel like they have achieved nothing meaningful if they cannot succeeed in brainwashing their children into an in-caste marriage?

Is the incidence of this phenomenon, less likely if they were part of emerging Hindu groups eg devotees of Sathya Sai Baba/Amma etc?

95.  Bala List of Happening Tamils who married out of caste 2/6/2006 5:37 PM

Let's list happening Tamils who did not marry in caste here. Add to the list:-

1) Anandakrishnan -- arguably the richest Tamil in the world (Tamil-Malaysian owner of Malaysia's leading mobile phone, cable TV and satellite companies, Maxis, Astro and Binariang. Entering strongly into Tamilnadu via purchase of Aircel with the Apollo group as local partners). Was last married to a niece of the Thai king. Don't know if he is single or married again now.

2) Anton Balasingam -- Tamil Tiger strategist -- married to an Australian